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21/07/2008, 8:36 PM milan marcus Joined on 19/03/2004 Posts 92 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget... SPat Let me explain why I feel betrayed and why I cannot understand fans like you PC wanted to invest £20 million into NCFC As a fan I know that money gives us a chance to compete for the Premiership which is where I believe we belong As someone who understands business I understand what PC wants and it’s not unfair The club issue new shares that give PC 51% of the club The existing shareholders including Delia dilute their shares to 49% In return for 51% of the shares he invests £20 million into the club for players Yes that’s invest into players not hotels or kitchens or new stands You must understand that £20 million easily warrants having control of the club.  Could someone tell us exactly what the existing shareholders paid to gain control The sad irony is and it’s one that few seem to understand is that the current shareholders shares are worth far more at 49% with PC and £20 million than 100% with no ability to challenge for the premiership.      Report

21/07/2008, 8:42 PM Gorleston Jim Joined on 26/08/2004 Gorleston Posts 1,857 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget...  milan marcus wrote: SPat my poor deluded Delia fan..... Let me explain it very simply for you: In return for PC investing £20 million in players the club give him 51% of the shares If you or any other fans do not think £20 million is enough for control of the club then please explain why.  Delia and the existing shareholders 49% stake is worth far more with a transfer kitty of £20 million for players than 100% of a club with no ability to challenge for the top two postions and a very divided fan base I don't understand I'm afraid, sorry As I see it Delia and Husband own 63% at the moment, if she supplies Callum with 51% she is left with only 12%. Even if, (and it is if, investment is no guarantee), City did well she would achieve only marginal return compared with PC. I can't in all honesty see that as an attractive proposition for her.     The present cannot be revealed to people until it has become yesterday.    Report

21/07/2008, 8:42 PM renegade tootsie Joined on 16/08/2006 Posts 1,206 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget... I thought YC was female....  Neil Cluckcaster wrote:  YankeeCanary wrote:  Neil Cluckcaster wrote:  YankeeCanary wrote:  Neil Cluckcaster wrote:  Herb wrote:  Neil Cluckcaster wrote: Additionally...some of us are less interested in Peter Cullum's money than the direction and steel that a man of his business calibre would bring. Yeah, of course. I'm sure you didn't even notice Cullum's mention of 20m, you just started salivating at the direction and steel he'd bring. Meanwhile, back on planet earth.... Theres a difference between wanting something better than the current board (which I think most fans would) and giving the club away to an insurance man no questions asked. And no questions are being asked. Hence why despite not making an offer for control of the club, everyone seems to have decided that Delia wants 150 squillion quid in unmarked note dropping off at Stowmarket before she'll even talk. The more intelligent amonst us are reading between the lines and thinking "Whats his bloody game, then?" My apologies..... When my arse starts talking next I'll try to communicate better with you...... I see. Well, Cluck, we have a few spare guided missiles sitting around so, if you will be good enough to provide your address, we'll send you one gift wrapped. We won't concern ourselves with which end of your anatomy we target as your output from either end is remarkably similar. I'd save those missiles for your next invasion plans Yank....and being the male of the species I fear I'll never have the right equipment to communicate with you........ Your early days as Nora had some of us confused. Then again, you may have been going through a confusing period yourself. I'm actually pleased for you that you seem to have found yourself now. I have indeed Yank...and so I have a number of nice dresses available for purchase....but being a Yank I guess a size 16 would be many sizes too small for you....eh fatty boy? I SUPPORT NORWICH CITY ON THE PITCH. I WANT TO SEE BETTER PLAYERS AND MORE THAN 31% OF TURNOVER SPENT ON PLAYERS WAGES. THAT REQUIRES A NEW BOARD WITH SOME GUTS.    Report

21/07/2008, 8:49 PM Herb Joined on 22/12/2003 Posts 1,824 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget...  milan marcus wrote: In return for PC investing £20 million in players the club give him 51% of the shares   "The club"? Surely you mean the shareholders? And what makes you think all of the shareholders would agree to sell their shares unanimously? What about the shares owned by supporters who have a couple of grand or so in shares? Reckon they're going to be keen to sell just as a billionaire is about to take control? Why should any of the shareholders be expected to lay down their shares to someone few of us knew from Adam 12 months ago? Or are you envisioning the scenario Gorleston Canary rightfully points out as being ludicrous - cos if you are I want some of what you've been drinking....    Report

21/07/2008, 8:51 PM Herb Joined on 22/12/2003 Posts 1,824 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget...  Herb wrote:  milan marcus wrote: In return for PC investing £20 million in players the club give him 51% of the shares   cos if you are I want some of what you've been drinking.... Actually what have I been drinking. Instead of "sell" I should have typed "give away"    Report

21/07/2008, 9:03 PM milan marcus Joined on 19/03/2004 Posts 92 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget... Hi mate this is how I see it If she owns 63% she would reduce that stake to half i.e 31.5% with the other shareholders doing the same.  I would strongly argue that 31.5% stake in a NCFC financed with £20 million of money and supported by PC is worth far more than owning 63% that has no real cash to compete for the Premiership. I can also bet you and every other supporter that Delia did not invest £20 million to get a 63% stake!! whereas PC is prepared to invest £20 million for a 51% stake  I hope that explains what I am trying to say and thanks for trying to see my point    Report

21/07/2008, 9:28 PM Nuff Said Joined on 18/06/2007 East Midlands Posts 595 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget...  milan marcus wrote: SPat my poor deluded Delia fan..... Let me explain it very simply for you: In return for PC investing £20 million in players the club give him 51% of the shares If you or any other fans do not think £20 million is enough for control of the club then please explain why.  Delia and the existing shareholders 49% stake is worth far more with a transfer kitty of £20 million for players than 100% of a club with no ablity to challenge for the top two postions and a very divided fan base   Milan let me explain it simply for you... PC says to the club here's £20 million - spend it on players and in return I want majority control of the club. The club say: "Thanks, but by the terms of our loans we will have to pay back £16 million, plus £4 million in directors' loans, if overall control of the club changes. Are you going to cover this in the event that the loans are called in by the lenders?" The club also says "By stock market rules, you will have to offer to buy all shareholders shares if you acquire a majority stake. Are you prepared to cover the cost of these too?" Even if Delia sells out for nothing, PC must be able to cover the potential repayment of the loans and the buyout of the other shares. That is why PC's offer as it was did not stand up. Nuff Said On the Ball City!    Report

21/07/2008, 9:48 PM YankeeCanary Joined on 23/12/2003 New Jersey, USA Posts 2,997 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget...  milan marcus wrote: Hi mate this is how I see it If she owns 63% she would reduce that stake to half i.e 31.5% with the other shareholders doing the same.  I would strongly argue that 31.5% stake in a NCFC financed with £20 million of money and supported by PC is worth far more than owning 63% that has no real cash to compete for the Premiership. I can also bet you and every other supporter that Delia did not invest £20 million to get a 63% stake!! whereas PC is prepared to invest £20 million for a 51% stake  I hope that explains what I am trying to say and thanks for trying to see my point Let me also explain it simply to you Milan: If I were the owner of the club and I have the call over what actions we will or won't take, and Peter Cullum came to me SAYING he would spend 20 million on players in return for control of the club I would have to be a very foolish business person to turn control over for what someone SAYS they want to do. Even if his motives are sincere I have no guarantee that is the case. Once he has control he can choose to spend nothing, or a little, or lots. The point is all of those options are now under his control. My influence on decisions would now have been reduced as would my negotiating position if I subsequently chose to withdraw from the club because Peter Cullum chose to do differently then he said he would do. Thanks, but no thanks. That scenario has very little appeal for me. If Peter Cullum really wants the club then let him make an offer while I have control. If you don't understand that then you really understand far less about business than you like to suggest. How do you think the Leicester and Ipswich fans ( to name just two clubs ) feel about the potential cash injection into their club from their new owners versus what their expectation might have been at the time of the change of control?      Report

21/07/2008, 10:11 PM Thorpe Stephen Joined on 18/07/2008 Posts 47 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget... I dont want to keep on saying this but it needs to be rammed home it seems. Club worth £16m in assetts - Delia owns £9m (56%) - Other investors own £7m (44%) Club gains an extra investment of £20m Club now worth £36M in assetts - PC owns £20m (55%), Delia owns £9m (25%) others own £7m (19%) (OK dont point out this does not add up to 100% - rounding etc) The BIG BIG difference between PC £20m and Delia £9m and yours and my £7m is that the £20m is in cash and the rest is in fixed assets.........funny enough in the current climate the cash of £20m is probably worth more on future forecase £ to £ than the assets as most of the club assets are tied up in land, building which have decreasing value at the mo - we have very little assets which may increase in value (errrr - possibly Robert Eagle might be worth a fiver in ten years time if we are lucky!)    Report

21/07/2008, 10:36 PM YankeeCanary Joined on 23/12/2003 New Jersey, USA Posts 2,997 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget...  Thorpe Stephen wrote: I dont want to keep on saying this but it needs to be rammed home it seems. Club worth £16m in assetts - Delia owns £9m (56%) - Other investors own £7m (44%) Club gains an extra investment of £20m Club now worth £36M in assetts - PC owns £20m (55%), Delia owns £9m (25%) others own £7m (19%) (OK dont point out this does not add up to 100% - rounding etc) The BIG BIG difference between PC £20m and Delia £9m and yours and my £7m is that the £20m is in cash and the rest is in fixed assets.........funny enough in the current climate the cash of £20m is probably worth more on future forecase £ to £ than the assets as most of the club assets are tied up in land, building which have decreasing value at the mo - we have very little assets which may increase in value (errrr - possibly Robert Eagle might be worth a fiver in ten years time if we are lucky!) You cannot "ram" things home with others until you can demonstrate that you are capable of ramming a few things home in your own thinking. Very few astute people are going to turn over something they own to somebody else for anything more than a STATEMENT from a prospective buyer of what they say they will spend on players.      Report

21/07/2008, 10:37 PM milan marcus Joined on 19/03/2004 Posts 92 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget... YankeeCanary Norfolk fuzzy Logic has reached you out there? "SAYING he would spend £20 million" This is simply a legal contract nothing fuzzy to worry about "I agree to invest £20 million in return for 51% of the club" Even I don't love PC enough to take his word if he fails to invest he gets sued and I think he is worth £20 million plus change I still don't understand why we as fans are more worried about the shareholders rather than what £20 million will do for the team?    Report

21/07/2008, 10:43 PM ron obvious Joined on 11/01/2005 Posts 737 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget...  milan marcus wrote: "SAYING he would spend £20 million" This is simply a legal contract nothing fuzzy to worry about "I agree to invest £20 million in return for 51% of the club" I'd love to see the wording of that contract. Also "in return for" means he's getting the shares for nothing. Again.    Report

21/07/2008, 10:58 PM YankeeCanary Joined on 23/12/2003 New Jersey, USA Posts 2,997 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget...  milan marcus wrote: YankeeCanary Norfolk fuzzy Logic has reached you out there? "SAYING he would spend £20 million" This is simply a legal contract nothing fuzzy to worry about "I agree to invest £20 million in return for 51% of the club" Even I don't love PC enough to take his word if he fails to invest he gets sued and I think he is worth £20 million plus change I still don't understand why we as fans are more worried about the shareholders rather than what £20 million will do for the team? Fuzzy logic? What legal contract are you referring to? The one that never materialised into a formal offer from Peter Cullum, or the one that is simply dancing around in your head on the end of pots of gold that sway your thought process without substance to support it? All you have in your rhetoric is your belief of what you think should happen because you want the money so badly. Answer the questions I asked and I may dialogue with you. For example, how do you think the Leicester and Ipswich fans ( to name just two clubs ) feel about the potential cash injection into their club from their new owners versus what their expectation might have been at the time of the change of control? And if Peter Cullum acquired control, even if this "ghost contract" that you allude to was in place do you think Mr. Cullum, given the nature of the business he is in, is going to sign something that could subject him to a lawsuit. And who's going to raise such a lawsuit, the minority shareholders, the fans? In your dream world none of this would ever materialise because Mr. Cullum is just wonderful. In my real world, if I own the club I will tell Mr. Cullum what I want while I have a say in the matter. That, I believe is precisely what Delia and Michael have done. Surprise, surprise.    Report

21/07/2008, 11:56 PM milan marcus Joined on 19/03/2004 Posts 92 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget... "Answer the questions I asked and I may dialogue with you" ok fair play here goes: "For example, how do you think the Leicester and Ipswich fans ( to name just two clubs ) feel about the potential cash injection into their club from their new owners versus what their expectation might have been at the time of the change of control"       PC is a diffent class of an investor to those at Leicester and Ipswich he is a real deal billion pound investor who happens to be a Norwich fan.  He wanted to invest £20 million of cash.  He is not investing in NCFC for financial gain he is doing because he wants success for NCFC.  However nor is he a mug and for £20 million pound he wants control.  "And if Peter Cullum acquired control, even if this "ghost contract" that you allude to was in place do you think Mr. Cullum, given the nature of the business he is in, is going to sign something that could subject him to a lawsuit. And who's going to raise such a lawsuit, the minority shareholders, the fans?" PC is not here to rip off the club...... please.....a commercial contract would be signed by everyone if he did not invest in the £20 million his whole reputation would be ruined plus he would be sued by the club.  I don't think this really is a valid debate "In my real world, if I own the club I will tell Mr. Cullum what I want while I have a say in the matter. That, I believe is precisely what Delia and Michael have done. Surprise, surprise" You own a club that cannot compete at the top level needs urgent investment and if it does not find investment will need urgent injections of cash to ensure its viability.  You tell Mr Cullum what you want and tell him to stick £20 million where it hurts My question to you is what did it cost Delia to gain contol of the club and was she forced to buy the whole club to get control?  However mate at the end of the day we both love NCFC    Report

22/07/2008, 2:55 AM Big Down Under Joined on 16/12/2007 Posts 341 Re: Re. Cullum, let's not forget... Good grief I promised myself I wouldn't get involved any more in this. Marcus I understand your frustrations, but you just don't understand the business mindset at all. This whole issue is about control of the club, and control of invested money into the club. Delia currently has control, Cullum wants it. However, Cullum wants it without actually buying it from Delia (or so the offer currently appears). People seem to think that its obvious Cullum deserves control if he is putting in so much money, but remember it is a tiny part of his net worth. Delia is only worth about 30m (from the Times rich list and from memory, but I think that figure is about right) but has put in about 9m, a major proportion of her net worth. For that investment, she is (quite rightly) insisting on keeping control of HER MONEY. You presume that Cullum will spend 20m, take control of the club, and run it like a fan. Then why isn't he acting like that now? If he was going to act like a fan and not a billionnaire business man, why not bid more right now? There are no guarantees he would act in the way you suggest, and believe me you don't get to be worth 1.7Bn without having a huge ruthless streak running through your veins. I would suggest he is acting right now more like the billionnaire business man and less like the fan. All this rubbish about issuing new shares - it would dilute Delia's investment value. However much people spin "but its better to own 49% of a Premiership club than 51% of a Championship club" I would say absolute rubbish. 1. There are no guarantees that a 20m investment would see us into the Premiership. Loads of examples of cashed up 2nd tier clubs who don't get promoted 2. She would have no control. Cullum, with a majority vote on the board, could sell the ground, raise ticket prices, give his shares to Evans down the road, do what he wants. I'm not suggesting for a minute that he WOULD do this, but he could. Delia's shares could become worthless over night. 3. Would you lose control of 33% of your net worth like this? Would you sign over control of your house to a property developer, in the expectation you could double your money? Only an absolute idiot would. 4. Contracts are generally worth the paper they are written on. If Cullum gets control and DOESN'T put his money in, how much money do you think the club would have available to fight Cullum in a law suit? With the legal team he could afford, the case would be wrapped up in court for years. Meanwhile, the club have no 20m and our remaining board members have seen the value of their share wiped out. Not very good for the future of the club. Again, I am not saying this would happen, but it could. 5. Do you really think other City (as in City of London) investors would care less about what he may or may not have promised to NCFC? Not while his other interests are growing at the rate they are, nobody would care less. 6. Is this new share issue you suggest even legal? I don't think Cullum is here to rip off the club, but I do think he is trying to buy it cheap and get a good deal. I don't hold a grudge against him for trying, even if I am pissed off with the timing of his public statement (I also think Delia was dumb for what she said at the Royal Norfolk Show). However, it is only right that if he wants control, he should buy out the existing share holders and stop wasting everyone's time. If he just wants to give a cash injection, loan the money and let the club get on with it. You and others are responding exactly how Cullum wanted you to respond. His only motive for going public was to get the fans on his side against Delia. At the expense of the club. HArdly the actions of a man acting like a fan, and not a business man trying to get a club cheaply. Did you notice how transfers in dried up after his announcement? We might never know how much damage this whole episode has done.    Report

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