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23/06/2009, 5:44 PM lappinitup Joined on 30/01/2007 Typical dog, pisses up Posts 4,679 Re: Southampton on the brink! Apart from the knock-on effects you mention LQ, their argument is based on the fact that the holding company folded and not the club. If that were the case, why then can't fans buy season tickets and the club pay wages and so on? Surely, if the two were separate entities, the club would still be functioning normally. Cor blas bor, ire bin a'tellin yew thas gorta git batter hent oi?. Wel, thas a gittin batter!    Report

23/06/2009, 5:52 PM LQ Joined on 09/02/2005 Looking for a grassy knoll... Posts 1,217 Re: Southampton on the brink! You're humouring me aren't you, you naughty dog! 1) Leon Crouch admitted on Five Live that the parent company situation was a deliberate tactic to get around the administration issue. 2) Despite the protestations of that Saints fan who came on here (why?) when this all unfolded, bleating on about the fact that the parent company had lots of other business interests the forensic accountants hired by the FL failed to find them or agree that they were separate. The radio station for example (Saints FM) had been separate for quite some time. The only thing, other than the club, that the parent company owned was a slice of land next to it. 3) As you rightly say there are no season tickets for sale. No dealing in players. No wages. No nothing. No right of appeal! They seriously need to get over this. Where's my monkey?    Report

23/06/2009, 6:03 PM lappinitup Joined on 30/01/2007 Typical dog, pisses up Posts 4,679 Re: Southampton on the brink! The most concerned people right now must be the creditors wandering what, if anything, they will get back of the money that is owed to them. Strangely, none of the people who advocate this as a solution to OUR clubs problems have little to say......... Cor blas bor, ire bin a'tellin yew thas gorta git batter hent oi?. Wel, thas a gittin batter!    Report

23/06/2009, 7:21 PM Metatron Joined on 09/03/2009 Posts 356 Re: Southampton on the brink! I agree Lappin. I often wonder whether Smudger would be so keen on Administration for us if his company had won a print contract with the Club and were owed thousands of pounds at any one time for various print jobs. I suspect that his view of a potential Club bankruptcy would be slightly different if the future of his own company were on the line as well. Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.    Report

23/06/2009, 9:50 PM USAcanary Joined on 07/03/2004 Posts 1,288 Re: Southampton on the brink!  lappinitup wrote: The most concerned people right now must be the creditors wandering what, if anything, they will get back of the money that is owed to them. Strangely, none of the people who advocate this as a solution to OUR clubs problems have little to say......... Of course they don't........... We see it all the time.................... they advocate an action without even considering the consequence of the action. They assume that Norwich in admin with no board/investors would have people lining up to take over......... I am normally pretty positive but I feel football in general is a bubble waiting to burst. I think it will take maybe a major club going out of business to shake things up and bring back some reality. Players are getting paid far too much because overall investors and TV companies subsidize the money brought in by the paying fan. Once those two dry up.....Such as with Southampton and Setanta Sports......... you are left with clubs owing players money they don't have.      Report

24/06/2009, 12:46 PM Mr.Carrow Joined on 06/12/2003 Posts 3,292 Re: Southampton on the brink!  lappinitup wrote: The most concerned people right now must be the creditors wandering what, if anything, they will get back of the money that is owed to them. Strangely, none of the people who advocate this as a solution to OUR clubs problems have little to say......... Probably because people are bored with arguing with an ostrich mentality during such lovely weather. EVERY season since relegation there`s been one club you lot have decided is the "thank god we`re not like them" for the year, followed by the usual "they`re doomed don`t you know" pronouncements.  It was Coventry last year- funnily enough the thread crowing about their imminent demise went very quiet when they got new investment and poached one of our best players......  NONE of those clubs (Cardiff, Charlton, Sheff.Wed, Coventry, etc.) have disapeared and most are doing a darn site better than us.  You actually sound desperate for a club to disapear just so you at last you have at least ONE example to back up your discredited argument . Our club has been run abysmally and those who have constantly stuck up for the incompetents in charge are partly responsible for our decline.  Whining about a handful of other clubs who have been equally badly run when there are dozens of smaller clubs doing better than us (and don`t seem to spend half their time whining about how unfare football is....) is utterly pathetic and is just more proof of a number of posters lack of integrity and intellectual honesty.    Report

24/06/2009, 1:00 PM PurpleCanary Joined on 12/10/2007 Posts 1,452 Re: Southampton on the brink!  PurpleCanary wrote:  Mr.Carrow wrote: I`ve already offered to bet £200 to the academy with one of the "usuals" that player wages as stated in the next accounts will be nowhere near £8.5m.  Suffice to say it wasn`t taken up.  Does anyone SERIOUSLY believe another classic example of misleading club spin?!  The £8.5m figure was initially mentioned by Doncaster as an overall "playing budget" covering everything (and including the cash Roeder held over from last Jan. and incoming transfers), and it has been very predictably twisted into representing player wages.  Mr.Carrow, I only ever saw Neil Doncaster use that £8.5m figure (initially back in September) as an overall player budget figure. I'd be grateful if you could point me to an official quote where he or someone else from the club later twisted it into referring to player wages alone. The point is that I've used that £8.5m figure in my Cullumgate story in talking about the overall player budget, and if Doncaster or a colleague did afterwards spin it into something else then I need to take that into account. I have this tedious stickler for accuracy thing. Mr.Carrow, since you've now revisited this thread, I wondered if you could help me out by providing evidence of that club spinning and twisting you were talking about in relation to the £8.5m figure. http://thecanarypurple.homestead.com/ --- "The philosophers have only interpreted the world. The point, however, is to change it."    Report

24/06/2009, 1:32 PM Mr.Carrow Joined on 06/12/2003 Posts 3,292 Re: Southampton on the brink! PC, the club know their audience and they know they don`t have to try too hard to mislead people.  The "£8.5m for player wages" has become another red herring which has been repeated plenty of times in the local press, footballwriters and on here.  And of course the club have done nothing to counteract the misunderstanding. I`ve never noticed you correcting people either?  I wonder why that would be....?  What do you think the player wage bill will be in the next annual report?    Report

24/06/2009, 1:53 PM PurpleCanary Joined on 12/10/2007 Posts 1,452 Re: Southampton on the brink!  Mr.Carrow wrote: PC, the club know their audience and they know they don`t have to try too hard to mislead people.  The "£8.5m for player wages" has become another red herring which has been repeated plenty of times in the local press, footballwriters and on here.  And of course the club have done nothing to counteract the misunderstanding. So it is the club's fault that fans can't understand straightforward English, and club employees should spend their time correcting numerous erroneous posts based on that lack of basic understanding? Let us get this absolutely straight. You said the club had spun and twisted that £8.5m figure from referring to the overall player budget into referring to wages. In fact the the club never did any such thing. There is absolutely no truth whatsoever in your allegation. In a post above you said certain posters had  a "lack of integrity and intellectual honesty". I could not have put it better. http://thecanarypurple.homestead.com/ --- "The philosophers have only interpreted the world. The point, however, is to change it."    Report

24/06/2009, 2:09 PM 7rew Joined on 08/03/2006 Manchester Posts 2,064 Re: Southampton on the brink!  Mr.Carrow wrote:  lappinitup wrote: The most concerned people right now must be the creditors wandering what, if anything, they will get back of the money that is owed to them. Strangely, none of the people who advocate this as a solution to OUR clubs problems have little to say......... Probably because people are bored with arguing with an ostrich mentality during such lovely weather. It won't happen because its not happened before, and you accuse others of ostrich mentality? There are other arguements for not going into administration, not all of them financial related, some even football related.   Even the "discredited" arguement of it being dangerous for the future of the club, still stands.  Would you bet your life on not rolling a six just because the last 5 rolls weren't sixes?  The only one arguement advanced for it, that it would get rid of the current board, doesn't hold up, see Ken Bates and Leeds. I am utterly convinced BlyBlyBabes is actually a computer trying (and failing) to pass the turing test.    Report

24/06/2009, 2:19 PM Mr.Carrow Joined on 06/12/2003 Posts 3,292 Re: Southampton on the brink!  PurpleCanary wrote:  Mr.Carrow wrote: PC, the club know their audience and they know they don`t have to try too hard to mislead people.  The "£8.5m for player wages" has become another red herring which has been repeated plenty of times in the local press, footballwriters and on here.  And of course the club have done nothing to counteract the misunderstanding. So it is the club's fault that fans can't understand straightforward English, and club employees should spend their time correcting numerous erroneous posts based on that lack of basic understanding? Let us get this absolutely straight. You said the club had spun and twisted that £8.5m figure from referring to the overall player budget into referring to wages. In fact the the club never did any such thing. There is absolutely no truth whatsoever in your allegation. In a post above you said certain posters had  a "lack of integrity and intellectual honesty". I could not have put it better. Do you think that if it was widely reported that the clubs wages were an uncompetetive amount- say £3m- that the club would quickly put right that figure?  It seems some untruths in the public domain are fine as long as they sit well with the board.  I`ve dragged up two old threads where people say Doncaster did indeed say that player wages were £8.5m, what is your opinion?     Report

24/06/2009, 2:43 PM I.S. Joined on 09/05/2005 Naaarwich Posts 1,311 Re: Southampton on the brink! Mr. Carrow, I would be interested to know your answer to this question: Are you advocating the administration of the club in order to remove the current majority shareholders?    Report

24/06/2009, 2:55 PM lappinitup Joined on 30/01/2007 Typical dog, pisses up Posts 4,679 Re: Southampton on the brink! They are bringing Delia into it now............ http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/4456670.City_lawyer_hits_out_at_League_on_Saints_appeal/ A LEADING Southampton lawyer has branded the Football League’s decision to refuse Saints an appeal against their points deduction as “incredibly unfair”. Steve Grant, a director of Warner Goodman commercial, said: “It gives the impression it wasn’t the right decision in the first place. “In corporate law the holding company and the trading company are treated as separate financial entities. “Surely the Football League rules should be clear and unambiguous with regards to that. “Look at Norwich. Delia Smith is a seperate entity to Norwich City FC. “If Delia Smith was declared bankrupt then Norwich City wouldn’t have any points deducted. “For the Football League to ride roughshod over 100 years of corporate law in this country is highly unjust. “The right of appeal is a major part of British law. That’s why British law is recognised all over the world.” Grant, a Saints supporter, added: “If the Football League believe their rules are clear then why do they fear an appeal? “Generally in all forms of corporate law if you believe you have grounds for an appeal, then you are entitled to one. “Sometimes courts rule against an appeal if they feel the case is so clear. “The Football League are not operating within the standards expected in a country like ours. Saints fans have been through enough without being held to ransom in this way.” Cor blas bor, ire bin a'tellin yew thas gorta git batter hent oi?. Wel, thas a gittin batter!    Report

24/06/2009, 3:05 PM lappinitup Joined on 30/01/2007 Typical dog, pisses up Posts 4,679 Re: Southampton on the brink! I have to say that is a totally unfair comparison. As far as I know, Delia smith Inc. and NCFC are two entirely seperate entities and therefore each could survive without the other. Whereas Southampton FC and their holding company are completely dependant on each other. Very misleading. Cor blas bor, ire bin a'tellin yew thas gorta git batter hent oi?. Wel, thas a gittin batter!    Report

24/06/2009, 3:05 PM LQ Joined on 09/02/2005 Looking for a grassy knoll... Posts 1,217 Re: Southampton on the brink! You beat me to it - I just read that too! This chap obviously isn't aware of all the goings on at St Marys otherwise he'd think a little more carefully. The whole point of what the forensic accountants (I love that phrase!!) discovered is that the football club was making huge losses which it passed on to the parent company purely and simply to avoid the points deduction issue. If that's legal in the eyes of the FL then all any club has to do is create a parent/holding company and go into Administration. It's so easy! That's why the points were deducted - because the board of the club and the board of the parent co acted in a way which was deceitful and underhand to avoid a penalty. Where's my monkey?    Report

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